Strange afternoon. As I walked into a meeting at ACU, someone handed me a note to call a producer at CNN. I didn’t have time right then, so I asked Gina if she’d find out what they want. When I came out of the meeting, she called and said they wanted me to be on the Nancy Grace show tonight.
Apparently yesterday, as they were discussing the murder of the young minister in Tennessee, someone tore into Churches of Christ as a cult, a kind of breeding ground for such crimes. So they invited me to come talk about Churches of Christ.
I had to go right into another meeting with a student. Afterward, I called the producer to get more specific info. I called a few people — some thought it was not a good idea and some thought it was. Finally, I decided to go.
But when I called back, he said he had thought they could do a satellite feed from Abilene but had found out they couldn’t. So they’d need to get me to Dallas, and he was afraid I wouldn’t make it in time.
Anyway . . . my buddy Rubel Shelly is going to do it. Rubel is in Detroit, teaching at Rochester College.
All of this to say: set your recorders for 7:00 CST tonight. Should be interesting. What a great person to represent the healthy direction so many Churches of Christ are taking!
Wow! That is so interesting! Surely that means that I wasn’t the only one to write to her and suggest if she wanted to know more about the church of Christ, she should talk to someone who is actually familiar with it! I suggested you specifically! So, I guess I wasn’t the only one who brought up your name because I KNOW that I’m nobody important enough that CNN would sit up and listen!
I can’t wait to see/hear what Rubel Shelly has to say!
What a great moment for redemption and an opportunity to shine for our Father. Our prayers rise for Rubel tonight. (. . . and I may need to take back my “sensationalist hack” comments about Nancy G.)
We are witnessing the power of God to redeem and re-create from a moment of horror and loss. The quotes printed from those churches, their leaders and members, in Tennessee have been seasoned with grace, forgiveness, love and reconciliation. Now Rubel has an opportunity to give further glory and declare the Kingdom. It’s a beautiful day.
PTL! Rubel should be able to give Nancy a short version lesson in grace, mercy, forgiveness, and not jumping to conclusions, which can be her MO in these cases. She began to go overboard completely with the kidnapping and murder of the little girl in San Diego, Danielle. She turned out to be right about the accused in that case, and has not been able to back off since then. She’s totally forgotten about our system of justice - presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Thanks for the heads up, Mike - I can hardly wait to see and hear Rubel tonight!!
Mike, a clarification. Is Rubel going to be on with Nancy Grace on Court TV or CNN?
Following is the transcript from the show:
GRACE: A well-respected and much beloved minister in the Church of Christ, Selmer, Tennessee, gunned down in his own home. His wife, according to many reports, has confessed to police. They say whodunnit is not the issue, it`s why she did it. That is the question.
I want to go to pastor Tom Rukala, joining us tonight, a special guest, a Baptist minister. I`ve been researching the Church of Christ. I don`t know that much about it. What can you tell me?
PASTOR TOM RUKALA, BAPTIST PASTOR: Well, the Church of Christ is a relatively new church. It was started about 150 years ago by Alexander Campbell (ph). And it`s, unfortunately, a very legalistic sect, and they tend to use methods of intimidation and pressure tactics. They claim that they are the only ones going to heaven, and all other people are condemned to hell. So in case…
GRACE: Uh-oh, I`m in trouble. But I already knew that.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. What more can you tell me?
RUKALA: Well, they claim that if you`re not baptized by one of their ministers, that you`re doomed to hell, even if you`re a believer in Jesus Christ, which, of course, breaks completely from the traditional Christian view that all those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved because we`re saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and rose again. For the Church of Christ folks, that`s not enough. You have to be a member of their narrow sect. It`s a very exclusive group. And if you`re not a member of their sect, you`re condemned.
GRACE: You know, Pastor, you keep saying “sect.” “Sect.” You make it sound like a cult.
RUKALA: It kind of is a borderline cult, unfortunately. I don`t want to make it out to be some kind of Hare Krishna group, but it has cult-like characteristics and…
GRACE: In what sense?
RUKALA: Well, in the sense of the exclusivism, the attitude that they are the only ones who know the truth. The tactics that they use are sometimes just — not only un-biblical but unethical, and they can be very ungracious, unfortunately.
The show is on CNN Headline News - Not regular CNN or Court TV.
According to a the following transcript - NANCY GRACE - Is a Serial Killer on the Loose in Massachusetts? - Aired February 3, 2006 - 20:00:00 ET
This guy is apparently from Finland!!!
“And a special goodnight from friends of the show here all the way from Finland, Pastor Tom Rukala (ph), his wife, Linda (ph). Thank you for being with us. “
Thanks, Roger!! :O)
You chose wisely. Or maybe you just lucked out. This woman’s agenda is to always show those who don’t agree with her in a bad light. Always.
The show is almost over, and I find the attitudes of Nancy Grace as well as several other “spiritual leaders” to be very disrespectful and a bit myopic. The implication is that this woman possibly shot her husband because she’s a member of the church of Christ “cult.” Hmm… wasn’t the BTK killer a prominent Lutheran? I never heard an analysis of his “cult” causing him to do that.
On the other hand, it makes me sad to think of the reputation the church of Christ has built for itself, and unfortunately, I can see why these stereotypes persist.
It was awful. She treated Rubel with utter disrespect, rolling her eyes, cutting off every answer. Just awful. She had an apparent agenda, and didn’t let anything throw that agenda off the rails. Awful.
I mean no disrespect … well, actually I guess I do but here goes anyway: Does anyone else get the feeling, when watching Nancy Grace, that it’s some old Saturday Night Live skit?
I’m deeply troubled by everything about the Nancy Grace show. I’m unhappy that so many media outlets (CNN, Fox News, etc.) aren’t interested in having real dialogue; seems they only want to scream at each other. Thank goodness for NPR.
What responsible journalistic venue would put Bob Jones on the air to determine whether or not we’re a cult?
I hope we’re not reaping what we’ve too often sown.
Yes, Mike, I saw most of it and it wasn’t pretty. This woman evidently has some evil working somewhere within her, Nancy Grace, I mean. I thought it was appalling the way she said, again with the eye roll, “Well, I’m Methodist.” I have to think every Methodist that has a heart for Christ that saw her meanness would have to be ashamed of the way she treated Rubel.
I want to check the transcripts tomorrow to see exactly what alll was said since I didn’t get to hear all of Rubel comments.
Peace.
MC:
Dodged a bullet on that one! I still think you’re better looking than Deepak Chopra, though!
I believe the show replays at 9 PM and 12 midnight tonight for those that missed it, at least that’s according to her website.
To clarify, it is 9 PM and 12 midnight CST.
I agree with Greg. I think you dodged a bullet. She had an agenda and that was all that came across the air. Should we expect any less from CNN?? I emailed twice to the show, but I cannot imagine it will mean much.
Steve, actually, she said “I’m JUST a Methodist.” I’m sure she said that because we church of Christ members all think we’re sooo much better than everyone else (and yes, my voice is dripping with sarcasm).
Bobby Ross of Christian Chronicle emailed a lot of us late this afternoon about the show so I watched it (it was on CNN Headline News). The only word I have for Nancy Grace and how she treated Rubel Shelly is “digraceful.” Her last name may be grace, but she fails to show grace or graciousness or any other positive virtue that may be associated with that word (and name).
Of course, it was nothing different than how she always acts and in particular how she has acted over this terrible tragedy. I happened to see her (whom I don’t normally watch) a couple of nights ago and it was just as appalling.
Unfortunately, I must also say that I have lived long enough and been a member of the Church of Christ long enough and have lived enough different places that I have experienced (Heaven help me) the very “cult” like circumstances she talks about and is trying to feed on. And it wasn’t too far away from where I live right now. It was truly evil to the point that I had a confrontation with one male member of the church one night (in trying to “retrieve” my - literally - kidnapped older child from their home with the help of the local sheriff’s department) that it was if I were confronting Satan himself. I kid you not, nor am I exaggerating. It was if I were faced with pure evil in the lies and hatred spewing forth from him with cause or reason (except that he had been fed a bunch of lies by my ex in the middle of a horrible divorce, which was of no fault of my own).
I thank God every second of every minute of every day that I am now in the midst of the most loving, caring, working fellowship I have ever been in in my entire life with Tammany Oaks Church of Christ close by here in Mandeville, LA, in the middle of Katrina Zone. He - God - has kept me safe through all and all of my children, too, who are now grown with loving families of their own and is continuing to pour out an abundance of blessings upon me and my entire family.
May God bring us all - and His glorious church - through all of this in a way that will be redeeming for all all we come in contact with in this world and in this society until the day comes when all will become known in His light and we all gather in our home to come with Him.
May God richly bless all of us who so strive to do His will and to be His children. And may He bless our enemies as they try to harm us and His Kingdom.
May it be so.
I am not active in the Church of Christ but was raised in the denomination. I have certainly internalized many of the belief patterns and am thankful for the good teaching I received.
To see the Church of Christ portrayed as a cult is disturbing to me. My dad is an elder in the COC and I know he is not part of a cult. I also have a brother who is a minister…he might be a great cult leader! Just kidding!
My wife and I went to a church service for the first time in many months this past Sunday. We attended a Disciple of Christ congregation and really appreciated the warmth and fellowship that was experienced.
Anyhow, I was saddened to learn of Pastor Winkler’s death. I heard his grandfather speak many times. We pray for comfort and a grand future for the little girls.
I love our heritage and I love our family here at Southwest in Jonesboro, but if we want to really impact the world it’s time to lose the name. We act like we are so ready to be unchained by all the tradition, but we are somewaht like people who say they are not racist and then lock there doors when someone who is a minority walks by. Unfortuantley we are getting what we have sowed. This is the same reason people don’t name their children Judas anymore, great name, lots of baggage. Nancy Grace may be a symptom of the problem, but the fact is that baptist minister did a good job describing the church I grew up in and many in this area.
Love the blog Mike!
“Anyhow, I was saddened to learn of Pastor Winkler’s death. I heard his grandfather speak many times. We pray for comfort and a grand future for the little girls.”
Amen. I’m with you in that prayer.
James,
The prayers for the children are the most important thing we can do. They have lost a father. Their mother will be profiled every evening by the press.
Pray without ceasing here.
May we all realize our shortcomings.
I’m saddened, but not really surprised (having read this blog many times before), that so many are caught up in defending/condemning the church of Christ.
So much so, that I wonder if you missed Rubel Shelly’s defense of the Gospel on that program tonight.
Bob Jones defended the Church of Christ.
Rubel defended The Christ.
Why is so much time in our Bible classes (and elsewhere) spent whining about the church of Christ we grew up in? My parents and the parents of my friends did their best to please God and to teach me to do the same. If I don’t think they got everything quite right, so what? I will still extend the same respect to them and to their efforts that I pray my sons extend to me.
I just finished watching Nancy Grace interview Rubel…I never liked Nancy Grace before and she confirmed all the reasons tonight while interviewing Rubel. She didn’t want to hear anything positive about the Church of Christ and she made sure that nothing positive was said. She just wanted it to look like she had let the Church of Christ have their say but she really didn’t let anything be said. She makes me crazy and I only watched because Rubel was on. Sorry, she gets under my skin.
The point at which I decided that Nancy Grace was not much more than hot air was when she was questioning Rubel Shelly about women’s role in the church. Rubel gave her scriptural references and explanations, and her response was “Do you remember Mary Magdalene? Duh!” What exactly is that supposed to mean? Mary Magdalene?
My pulse is so elevated right now I am about to be SICK! The “interview” with Ruble (as his name read!!!) was absolutely nauseating! I cannot believe ANY reputable network would have such horrifying standards that they would air such complete nonsense. It is moments like these that I plead “Maranatha”. Mike, say an extra prayer of thanks for meetings and Gina!!!
Hey, go to the Soulforce website and read the article about visiting ACU. It is titled Grateful for Abilene. I have never been so proud of ACU. Jesus would have sat at the table with the Soulforce group.
it never pays to justify ones self. i was raised in the coc that is my heritage good and bad. those of you who chose it well thank you for not leaving me alone with my family.
For Soulforce article you have to click on photos for the road.
Here’s the link:
http://soulforceacu.notlong.com
Peace.
Carla, I really appreciate your post, and I too am saddened and frustrated by all the whining I hear (mainly from middle-aged adolescents) about our parents and grandparents efforts to live godly lives. Of course, that’s not the way it’s usually couched: rather, they are called legalistic, narrow-minded, and inflexible.
What we seem to forget is that they lived and worshipped in ways indicative of their time, experiences, and cultural influences. We have an opportunity to live and worship in ways conguent with our time here on earth, and we don’t have to do it by bad-mouthing or making fun of the way they did it or the way some conservative churches still do it. I hear far too many middle-aged folks still rebelling against their parents’ brand of church rather than just doing the Lord’s work. And what is all that criticism and “making fun of” behavior modeling for our children?
I attend a large liberal congregation in a southern city and I love my church family there. But I am equally at home in tiny rural congregations or congregations in other locales around the world where a 24-year military career took me. Finding common ground rather than nit-picking differences is my understanding of Paul’s lesson about unity. I think we could all benefit more from extending respect to others rather than demanding it from others.
Rubel Shelly did a great job on the Nancy Grace Show tonight. He was exactly the right man for the job.
I agree with Carla and Leanne. We should be respectful of the “cloud of witnesses” that have gone on before us. Would we appreciate being ridiculed or belittled by the generations to come, when we have been sincere in our faith and worship?
My grandfather was a very conservative member of the church, but he lived an upright and righteous life according to the scriptures as he interpreted them. I find no fault in that.
I am thrilled to hear that CNN listened to our feedback. I wasn’t able to see the show tonight, but from the comments here it seems we didn’t have the opportunity we had hoped for?
I agree with many of the comments those of you have made about Nancy Grace. It’s so unfortunate to witness what went on during her show.
Let’s pray for those who persecute us! The apostles never had easy either. First I’ve got to pray for a heart that is willing to pray for people like Nancy, but I really do want to pray for her and ask God to bless her. Who wants to join me?
Nancy Grace was anything but graceful tonight. The way she acted made anything she said ineffective.
What bothers me the most was that men claiming to be Christians (Rukhala and Jones) were blasting the church of Christ and saying we were unbiblical and almost cult like. We all believe in Jesus Christ and believe he is the Way, the Truth, the Life. Where is the unity? These men were fighting the wrong Enemy who I am sure is delighted by all of this.
We are standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before. . .I loved the “cloud of witnesses” reference by another person who commented. I’ve seen lots of comments about “reaping what we have sown.” That is true–but we have also be blessed to reap a heritage of studying the scripture that has led us into a better understanding of how God would have us live this sojourn here on earth.
I wrote to Nancy Grace yesterday and explained that as believers, we BELIEVE what God says and we also BELIEVE that God is the ultimate authority on what God has to say–not man. I wanted her to know that and that no one has been more impacted or heart sick over this tragedy than members of the Church of Christ. Our prayers are with all of the family members–including Mary.
I am deeply touched by this tragedy. It is a reminder that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but thankfully Jesus stands in God’s presence to call our names before the Father.
What speaks louder than anything (including Nancy Grace) is the actions of the Winkler family, Clark Freeman, and the Fourth Street Church. Their loving embrace of eachother and their loving forgiveness extended to Mary will make much more of an impression than all of the TV blather. We need to keep them in our prayers and they demonstrate the love of God to the world.
Mike,
I watched the interview tonight and wrote about it on my blog, Two Cities. I tried to show how Grace’s questions to Rubel were just unfair and loaded with unfair premises. I say next time you guys should use a tag team approach on her.
Whenever a mindset of prejudice is adopted toward an entire group of people I just begin to tune out. With his ministry, Jesus Christ completely blew-apart any validity that labelling people had. How can anyone assume that every member of the COC does everything right just because they are COC? Boy, that would be to turn a blind eye! It’s like assuming that every Muslim is hungry for revenge, or every American is a good person. I don’t agree one bit with the idealogical mindset that the Nancy Grace “discussion” tried to get across to its viewers, but for us to reverse the idealogy by saying that Nancy Grace has “evil” in her, is lowering ourselves to the same level. I think it’s this demonizing mindset that causes all kinds of monstrosities in our world.
I took an opportunity to visit with my youth group about this situation. I was crushed to hear of the labeling of the CoC. I encouraged them that this situation on CNN, may allow many of them the opportunity to speak up if asked if they were in a cult. We have prayed for an opportunity to talk to people about God, and this is just as good as any.
As I told Quile in our staff meeting, you can’t buy this kind of PR!
I was praying for you, Mike, the moment I heard about your opportunity and we were praying for Ruble.
I know you would have done a great job as well.
Should I put my voodoo doll of Nancy Grace on eBay?!?
M@
I had a slightly different take after watching the interview. I think it was apparent she figured out quickly this wasn’t someone she wanted to spar with and tried (unsuccessfully) to back off “gracefully”.
It’s almost like her show (and she) has multiple personalities, like she wasn’t sure which direction to go next.
Anyway, I felt Rubel answered every question she put out there and she couldn’t handle that. Her ignorance began to show and she ran for the woods (another guest she could try to humiliate).
This is directed at the Voodoo doll comment made by Matt McBryde.
Matt, do you take your witness seriously? Do you know that your words are being posted on a public domain for anyone, anywhere to read? And that if “Nancy Grace Church of Chirst” is entered into a search engine then anyone can be directed to this site? I don’t think that’s going to boad too well for our case. I know that you’re joking, but really, are you joking?
I know what happened last night is upsetting, but let’s try not to out-Nancy-Grace Nancy Grace! Especially in a forum where we publicly praise Christianity.
I didn’t see either episode of Nancy Grace. I gave her about 3 minutes one night and decided that I would rather have someone throw a toaster in my bathwater than to endure an entire segment of that program.
However, these discussions pinpoint the disconnect we have with our culture. The fact that no one has heard of us or knows what we believe is glaring.
I think if Nancy Grace were to come to Pascagoula and say those things about the Church of Christ, she would have to run for her life. We have rebuilt so many homes and helped so many people after Hurricane Katrina, the church has a great name these days. Before this, we were invisible.
So I’m wondering if we really put some legs on our talk about service, compassion, and bringing a cup of cold water to the lips of the thirsty … perhaps the people in our neighborhoods who were unfortunate enough to watch Nancy would shake their heads and turn her off.
Now I know why I like Fox News.
Well, to borrow the only line from “Titanic” that I liked… I had to write a strongly-worded letter to CNN this morning. That lady is maddening, I don’t know why she bothers to have so many guests if she’s just going to cut them all off. Ugh. Rubel Shelly was as gracious as anyone could be in that situation, but Nancy Grace is annoying. I apologize to you Nancy Grace fans, but she drives me nuts.
Dear Nancy Grace,
I’ll make you a deal. I promise not to practice law if you promise to stop teaching theology.
OK?
Sincerely,
Jeff Slater
Satan loves deception and is a skilled opportunist. He succeeds at distracting us from real triumphs. Families and Christian fellowships are in mourning. On the global front there is much to do. Mike and Bob just inspired many Christians to join forces in unity. Norman Kember, James Loney, and Harmeet Singh Sooden were just released from captivity in Baghdad. And this morning Jill Carroll has finally been freed from her captors. Yesterday, as NG and her producers were spinning their presentation, Abdul Rahman was flown out of Afghanistan and into Italy, where he has been granted asylum. There are many Christians in Afghanistan AND Iraq who are suffering and do not get to express their feelings or their faith so openly as the rest of us. (I do not mean to leave out those suffering from oppression in other countries out — there are just so many!)
Yes, Satan knows exactly what makes us tick and take the bait.
Let us all embrace the challenge of our Lord and move forward. We have much to do, and many to love. So many of you are wonderfully placed, with tremendous hearts and the passion to get the work done. Let’s keep encouaging one another, and take control of our emotional and spiritual space. Blessings!
How we respond to all of this will be even more powerful than words…
Sin has such far-reaching consequences. Did Mary W. even begin to think that the entire CofC would be under scrutiny when she was contemplating her actions? I dread to think of all the ways my sins (both big & little) have affected this world. Satan has a way of feeding off of this stuff & adding sin upon sin . “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Eph. 6:12 Time to put on our armor!
Nancy dear, I have one word for you–Ritalin.
Nancy Grace has very little intelligence. Her guests were mostly inadequate to speak on the topic. The asian girl had no information about the case, the psychologist did not have her doctorate, the man who gave the “church history” speech, did not get dates right or our methods correct. I mean how many Churches of Christ have happy members, hyped meetings and who even have members who’d be willing to give money to go to the next level, haha!
Rubel did a fantastic job. He answered the questions like she asked them and even if he did run over her and let her know he was going to answer, he answered and was graciously proclaiming his beliefs. I am so very glad he stated that Jesus was the only way to heaven, considering Joyce Meyer on Larry King Live a few months ago stated that Jesus and the Holy Bible worked for her because she grew up with it. That was her reply to Larry asking her views on Muslim & Jewish faiths.
After watching Nancy Grace for the first time, it struck me that this show might not be the best place to get your news (unless you’re a big fan of the National Enquirer). But for sheer humor value, I don’t know if you can beat it.
This bit was priceless:
GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait. Dr. Shelly, no offense, by why, why only male leadership? Does anybody remember Mary Magdalene, ding ding?
SHELLY: Well, Mary Magdalene was not an apostle. All of the apostles were, in fact…
GRACE: Well, Judas was, and that certainly isn`t saying very much.
Transcript from last night if any of you care to view it.
http://nancyungracetranscript.notlong.com
Peace.
I may have sounded a little strong in a previous comment. I appreciate my Mom and Dad, who are very much still in the middle of “Seek the Old Paths theology” and my grandfather, who was an elder till my grandmother died, then he was no longer the husband of one wife so he had to step down (that still kills me) I really do appreciate many of the things that I was taught especially a love for scripture. But I am so saddened when I see the percentages of youth we are losing, I look at our youth group and then I look at our colllege ministry and wonder what happened?? CofC stats I have seen say we will only keep about 30% of each graduating class. It just scares me to think about that as the father of a 2 year old. I want to be surronded my more than just a “cloud of witnesses” I want my daughter and all her friends and all the people I grew up with to stay around. Sometimes my past causes me to go to extremes, but I wonder if the name is keeping one person from coming through the door is it worth it?
Brad,
Did your grandfather try to explain the “one wife” passage to them? If it wasn’t sad, that would almost be funny.
I watched, preparing myself for the surge of anger sure to come. It didn’t, simply because it was so obvious what Grace’s agenda was. The topics at hand seemed to be the murder in Tennessee and whether the CofC is, in fact, a cult. When she asked Rubel about womens’ roles it was easy to chuckle and say, “Ohhhhh. That’s how it’s going to be.”
Rubel proclaimed Christ with dignity and intelligence.
P. Mike I would love to hear your thoughts, after all, but by the grace of nancy there go you.
Friends -
Rubel was pretty discouraged last evening, as you can imagine! But today I’ve been passing along your comments to him, and it’s really been a blessing.
This much we know: he didn’t anticipate which direction the ambush was coming from, but he responded kindly and with grace; he answered the questions asked, even if no one wanted to hear an honest answer; he kindly pointed out that Churches of Christ aren’t a cult and that we aren’t of one mind on all topics; and he exalted Jesus Christ, not the Church of Christ.
Thanks.
I think the womens role question was Nancy’s pocket question. She didn’t get the resonse she was looking for with her first question (that we believe we are the only saved and everyone else is going to hell), so lets whip out the ole’ women’s role question. One way or another, she was going to show how cruel and outdated our church is in her eyes.
Personally, I am proud of the job Rubel did and was honored to have him represent my church.
I say we flood CNN with letters and e-mail telling Nancy Grace…
…that we forgive her and wish God’s richest blessings and the peace of Christ on her life.
What a great opportunity to show the way of Christ to this woman. Attacks are answered with love. And only one kind of Grace is sufficient.
I like the way you think, Grant!
Perspective is everything. I just visited MySpace.com for the first time. I was visiting Alicia Bonura’s facepage. Alicia and Ashley Brown, soccer players for Beaumont Westbrook, were killed yesterday in a bus wreck en route to Houston for a playoff game. Several other girls are in critical condition at this moment. The tributes to Alicia on her page are haunting, as is one of her quotes “I can’t wait to meet God”.
Prayers are need and encouraged. I really have little concern right now if someone thinks the cofC is a cult. Here’s the link:
http://www.southeasttexaslive.com
I’m personally thankful that Rubel was allowed to speak for me. I was appalled, on the other hand, that an oblivious Baptist pastor (who likely doesn’t speak for even the majority in his own denomination) was the first choice to speak for me. It’s so sad that true sectarians (the Baptist in this case) will use any and all situations, no matter how ridiculously inappropriate, to slander those who differ from themselves.
Rubel got it right: JESUS is the only way to heaven. Not a denomination. Not a work. And certainly no other god. Thanks, Rubel, for telling the truth to America (or the 53 people who watch Nancy Grace).
I’m constantly reminded of Jesus’ words and what persecution (even if just verbal) does for the church:
“Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets. . . Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.” (Luke 6:22-23, 26)
She looked like a irratated teenager when their parents are trying to talk with them. I too have given Miss Nancy Grace all the time I am going to ever give her. It was just by the grace of God that I flipped past her interview the other night with that Baptist minister. What he said grabbed my attention. It upset me to see CoCs being described in this way. Praise God that Ruble was at least able to get in a couple of words last night.
The comment about Mary Winkler thinking about how this would affect the whole CoC community was a really good one. Of course she didn’t think about it. But it did make me really think about my own actions and reactions. An action or reaction is always the beginning of a yet another action or reaction. Ruble represented our movement really well, but there will be those who will criticize the fact that a “liberal” was selected to speak for us and if a really conservative church leader had been chosen there would be criticism about that. What I appreciated the most about Ruble’s comments was that he didn’t seperate people into the two groups, he gave out the reasons we all (as a group of Christians) serve in the manner that we do. He focused on the ways we are similar, not different. But he also reminded all of us that each congregation has it’s own personality and interpretations. We are also all seperate.
So, what this has taught me. #1 Praying for those in crisis is more important than critisizing those involved. #2 Regardless of whether “anti” or liberal, we are really all on the same team, but we are just all using different techniques out of the same game plan book. #3 Together we are stronger than seperate #4 Praise God I don’t get to select the “crowd of witnesses” because I would do something stupid. #5 My actions and reactions will always be the part of a chain of reactions or the beginning of a chain of reaction. So I must be more careful than I ever imagine.
Grant I already left that exact response on the Nancy Grace feedback web site. You can leave your comments there by following this link… Ok I can’t make it work so cut and paste if you want.
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5c.html?
I feel a little guilty though because after the first night I sent a e-mail saying “Interview someone fromthe Church of Christ….Max Lucado, Mike Cope, Rubel Shelly….” I guess several others did too!
Mike, I am really glad you live in the boon docks of Abilene, far from the reaches of CNN satellite! I think Rubel did well and most people recognize an ambush when they see it happening. I really don’t care for Nancy Grace anymore.
Rubel, as always, was super! I can’t imagine anyone doing a better job than he did. He spoke the truth in love……in a situation where it would have been easy to not have done so. Christ was lifted up!
DU
KentF, I’ll be praying for these families. This puts things in perspective.
Do you ever find yourself in what I call a God moment? As I get older, I have learned to fully appreciate and step back when I know I am part of one of these. I pray so much more than I use too. I pray for wisdom a lot more too. When I got the transcript of the Nancy Grace article yesterday. The first thought is how awful. But then I try to see God in it. He is God and I am not. I did write to Nancy Grace and CNN. I tried to stress to CNN that the real story is the Unity movement, please report on that, it is a great positive story that needs to be told. Dear Rubel has always followed his heart and was always a man ahead of his time. I will be praying for Rubel all day today.
The sad thing about feedback to media is that it represents readers, watchers, listeners, or whatever even if the feedback is negative. Most media don’t care what one thinks about the programming as long as their sponsors are seen and they can boast the numbers. Grant knows. That’s not to say we shouldn’t respond, but just know any response feeds their egos.
Mike you can pass this on to Rubel. Rubel is an awesome man of God. Not only has he challenged other peoples walk with God but also he has challenged his own walk. Rubel is not a stagnate member of the church but a living growing blooming Christian. If only all the members of my family where more like Rubel as as Rubel is more like Jesus. Rubel thanks for taking the beating for us. May God give you peace.
What a week ! God has been glorified by a visit to Christian University by a visit from a homosexual group and Jesus has been proclaimed in humble and gracious manner before millions because of a murder. May God’s light continue to shine and illuminate in places where we do not see possibilities. Let us all continue to place the Winkler family and the 4th St. Church in prayer as they work through this event.
I’m just as frustrated as the rest of you, if not MORE. I have grown up as a Christian, my grandpa has been a C of C preacher for 50-60 years…I know that Glen Pace is not a “cult leader”. And we all know that we are not the only ones with the blessing of grace and salvation and not the only ones going to heaven. All that aside. The reason I may be more frustrated than some of you is because I work for CNN.
I can’t speak on behalf of CNN. And I have absolutely no connection to any of this that has happened on Nancy Grace’s show. All I know is what I’ve been reading on various blogs and transcripts. This is a good company and there are a lot of good people here…God’s people. There are some of us here who are trying to do God’s work and be a positive influence in an often harsh environment. To see that some of my brothers and sisters are displaying the attitude of ignorance and hatred and NOT the complete love of Christ is very discouraging.
I think it should be reiterated what someone said above. Be very careful what you say. Your comments can be easily misconstrued and I think none of us really want some of what is said above to be representative of the attitude of the Church.
I was just wondering..I mean, everybody is really worked up about this. Even the sweet lady who works beside me says, “I don’t watch her show but I don’t like her and I am never watching her show.” Do you think that maybe, in this, we may just learn something about ourselves. Like, are we cult like..just a thought…
Sarah - What you are doing is being salt and light. And what you’ve written is a great perspective from “the inside” that desperately needs to be heard!
Rubel was his usual Rubel great! I tried very hard to pray for NG as she set her sights on our fellowship and finally was able to do so this morning, but it was very difficult to sit quietly as a beloved brother was so shamelessly attacked and ambushed. However, Ruebel found one crack in that wall of attack against him, allowing a brief glimmer of his famous sense of humor to shine through when he said he was the only one on the program that confessed to being a membr of a Church of Christ.
I don’t watch NG, made this one exception as a gesture of solidarity with Rubel and will now refrain from ever watching her again - I’ll pray for her troubled soul, but will not watch her program.
May I mention a small elephant in the room? Some of the accusations NG was leveling against the CofCs seemed to be a throw back to the ICC during its beginning years and NG is so uninformed to know the difference at least, imho.
Anyone else struck by the thought of how different this would have been if the Baptist preacher when asked about the c of c would have responded in a supportive, postive manner? Another call, that the lines are being drawn clearer and clearer and we must stand together to make an impact for Christ on our world!
Wow… just read the transcript. Ugly and caustic come to mind… but then again, I feel that way about almost every news show. I really do wonder where journalistic integrity has gone in our culture.
Great job by Rubel. He headed straight into a storm and did about as well as I could imagine anyone doing in that situation.
Mike
It sounds like NG and her guest were mixing the Church of Christ up with the International Church of Christ (used to be the Boston Church of Christ). From what I’ve heard the latter church organization had some cult-like behaviors. Whereas the Church of Christ that I attended (and previous ones) were very patient and not pushy with me as I took my time in deciding whether I should get baptized or not. Let’s see what God does with the situation.
To Brad from Jonesboro - Remember that your words and actions are modeling for your 2-year old how to respect (or not respect) an older generation, which, by the way, YOU will someday be. Lest you misinterpret this, I am not talking about being a “respecter of men”/women, but rather respecting the way an older generation lived, worshipped, and followed the scripture with their hearts. You can do that and still live and worship in the way you see fit.
I also appreciate Sarah’s input to be circumspect on what and how we state our views to Nancy Grace, CNN, etc. If you read the agreement, you will see that by submitting comments, you are agreeing for those comments (in whole or in part - the “in part” may be scarier) to be used on the air. We want to speak the truth in love and not give her any more ammunition than she already has.
So how was Rubel Shelley “ambushed”? Grace wanted to know if the cofc was a cult, so her questions seemed to have been in that direction. So what about the cofc women, whe wanted to know. Well the answer is that they are dominated by the cofc men–they are kept silent in public assemblies and not allowed in any leadership positions. Most Americans in 2006 have a huge problem with that! And that answer may sound just a bit cult-like to many. It was a good question.
Do we think we are the only ones going to heaven? If you expand the “we” to include only those who believe in Jesus, then our answer is yes we do believe we are the only ones going to heaven. And of course, the majority in the world who don’t believe in Jesus have a problem with that. It was a relevant question.
Leanne, I am not sure what you are really trying to say, but I would love to talk with you more about it you would like to email me. I pray that I help her be open minded enough to respect an older generation ie. my parents, all the while knowing that just because they deserve respect does not mean their practices and traditions deserve that same respect. brad@dlnvcr.net
I was skeptical when I heard Rubel Shelley was going to represent the church of Christ (because of some of his un-Scriptural beliefs), but I must say, he did a fairly good job.
What I gather from Nancy is that she still has quite a bit of anger in her that comes from somewhere. I don’t just gather this from the recent shows on the COC but her general demeanor and disposition towards many of her guests. It seems that she wants to portray ANYone who defends the rights of an accused as some sort of evil person while at the same time portraying the values of prosecutors as impeccable. She made hs point the other night when speaking of the prosecutor in the Winkler case. “Prosecutors seek a verdict that renders the truth.” I believe she said. Anyway, I wonder where this resentment and anger come from. I pray that Nancy will find peace and forgiveness in her life. She needs our prayers.
P.S. I love that you went to your meeting “with a student” before calling the CNN producer back. I think some peple would have blown the student off for CNN. Just goes to show where your heart is …and isn’t!
I am glad that you (Mike) and Rubel were the ones contacted to speak for the Churches of Christ. It could have been worse with someone else speaking about “us”.
Their “expert” on Churches of Christ was a Baptist pastor? I know many Baptist pastors who claim they are the only ones going to heaven…does that make the Baptists a cult?
I also know many God fearing, Christ following Baptist pastors…I consider them brothers. If we are a cult, then so is everyone else.
I am happy with the demeanor and attitude that Rubel portrayed to Nancy Grace and the rest of the panel. I am also happy that Bob Jones stood up for us too.
Dear Friends,
I have offered many prayers of thanksgiving today that it was in fact Mike and Ruebel that CNN wanted. I am sorry that Mike couldnt make it, but am so thankful that Ruebel did. Ruebel, in the midst of straight on gun fire, you were professional, kind, and most importantly, CHRIST-LIKE. In the face of what I perceive as evil, you were a godly man. I was both proud and honored to be able to say, “That man is a leader in the church!” Thank you for your leadership, and for standing firm on the truth.
We all know that following the Lord is not always easy. God told us that we would be persecuted. Let them talk…let them judge…let them say and do whatever they want. We cannot do anything about “them” except pray and be an example when we can be. All we can do is thank God for His mercy and grace for each one of us (in or out of the c of C), and let His light shine in all that we do.
Excuse me for the mini-sermon… and forgive me for sharing it. (I am after all a woman.)
Thanks, Brad, we can continue that discussion offline. I will email you.
Leanne and Brad - You two are my heroes for the day. I would love to see our exchanges as opportunities to grow. I think it would be wonderful if more discussions could be taken offline (vs. the old “let’s take this outdoors”).
Martin, I think what most people are frustrated by was the spirit in which the questions were asked. I certainly didn’t see much respect when NG said, “Mary Magdalene? Ding ding!” They were valid questions and Rubel replied with knowledge and candor. I had more trouble with the tone than the content.
Joseph, I agree that Rubel’s interpretations of some scriptures differ from many in the CofC, but knowing him to be a man of sincere study, I certainly wouldn’t call his beliefs “unscriptural.”
Mike wrote a great book several years ago called “Righteousness Inside Out” that was a study of the Beatitudes.
Before we fire off any more angry missives to (or about) CNN, we might be wise to revisist those lovely, highly appropriate verses.
And Rubel Shelly is to be commended for staying on the high road. As usual.
Mike- that post about taking discussions offline seemed a bit snarky…you and I should meet after school behind the cafeteria to settle this once and for all!
So, Nancy Grace is rude and ignorant of the Bible and the Church of Christ doctrine. What else would you expect form CNN. Rubel did a fine job for as little as he was allowed to speak.
“Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:10
Turn up the heat, the church can stand it, we need it!
Let me add my thanks to Rubel representing “us” well last night in the face of very “un-Grace-ful” conditions last night. Let’s not be too hard on NG. She is interested in ratings and ratings alone. Apparently her anti-comments towards our fellowship has stirred that up.
Did not Jesus receive the same kind of treatment as Rubel did last night from his own “countrymen?” Thanks Rubel for responding as Jesus taught, in love.
I thought Bob Jones made an interesting comment. He disagrees with the Church of Christ because “we`re redeemed to Christ through the blood of the cross, not by the baptismal waters.” I can’t speak for every Church of Christ member, but it seems that the message we’re trying to get across is that the importance of baptism is in what it represents… the blood of Christ! Its so funny how we say the same thing, yet we still disagree.
Here are the links to the two transcripts (both are about halfway down the page):
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0603/27/ng.01.html
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0603/29/ng.01.html
Please write to Nancy and CNN at:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form1.html?15
Here is what I wrote, though I may have overused the word “respect.” I need an editor, obviously.
Dear CNN and Nancy Grace,
I majored in newspaper journalism at an accredited private university, and now have had three years of collegiate journalism experience, as well two years of professional experience. It is with this understanding of journalism as well as my life-long association with the churches of Christ that I am writing today, highly upset at the interviews that have been presented this week focusing on the tradition of the church of Christ. It seems the Baptist preacher who was interviewed didn’t know much more about this tradition that Ms. Grace, or that he has this tradition confused with the International Churches of Christ, who are indeed a cult and completely separate from the independent bodies of Christians who attend churches of Christ. Not only was I disappointed in the lack of actual fact or truthful reporting in the first interview, I was also disappointed in the way Ms. Grace treated the church of Christ preacher who did appear on her show. As a journalist, the lack of respect she showed the interviewee and her subject matter appalled me. I’m a Christian, and have stuck with CNN thus far, though many of my fellow news-watchers have switched to Fox. I stick with CNN because I like to think you, like me, are more interested in truth than in bullying and in political propaganda. You’ve begun to prove me wrong in that stance, and while I don’t want to change news providers, I will. Not because I want to be fed Republican B.S., but because I just want the truth, and I just want the news. I don’t want anyone’s opinions or personal bias feeding into my news source. Please make sure that your station and your programs are upholding such basic journalistic standards as respect, presentation of the truth, and an unbiased look at the truth. You have a great authority and responsibility as an international news station; it is your absolute duty to uphold the respect and trust of your viewership.
Respectfully,
Melanie J. Knox
Colorado Springs, CO
There were a group of us way up here at Fairfax CofC in greater Washington, DC. who saw, heard or read this Nancy Grace report and were appalled. We sent an email around to all of our friends and we all wrote to Nancy Grace and her producers requesting that they ask either yourself, mike, max lucado, or Jeff Walling to speak on behalf of us. I’m glad that they made that effort and pray for the words that your friend Shelby will say tonight.
I am an ACU graduate and a formally disfellowshiped ex-member of the Church of Christ. I grew up part in the 5th generation of a die hard Church of Christ family and have the distinction of being the only member of my family in 5 generations to “fall away” from “The Church”. I have not considered myself a part of “The Church” for more than 13 years and have had very little contact with my family in that time because that fact. I didn’t even see the Nancy Grace show with Rubel (also a friend of my family’s), but just reading the transcript for some reason had me in complete defensive mode and was incensed at the way she treated him.
I have not felt the need to defend the C of C in years and years, but she sure pulled it out of me in that interview.
Maybe if she let him get to somethings that I disagree with the C of C on I would have had a different reaction, but since she didn’t I am finding myself uncomfortably on the side of a C of C minister. That hasn’t happened in one heck of a long time!!!!
I did not see the interview, but certainly got the gist of it from the comments. In response to Joel’s comment re: NG’s anger, I was reminded of the book The Prophet by Frank Peretti (fiction I realize, but there are some similarities). This recollection led to my next thought about how sometimes our adversaries become our best allies. I was reminded of a certain Saul of Tarsus. It is wise that we pray for NG.
I could care less about the views of Nancy Grace and her show. What I do care about is the Winkler family and the church in Selmer. I have nothing but praise and admiration for the family and church in their handling of this terrible situation. All comments and conduct that I have seen during this time has been nothing short of “christ-like”. Their actions have spoken a thousand times louder than her hollow words.
Craig - I actually talked about that in my message last Sunday morning. My text was Mt. 7:1-6. I’ve been impressed with everything I’ve heard coming from that little church — gospeled words through and through.
FWIW, a story of the origin of NG.
http://www.observer.com/20060306/20060306_Rebecca_Dana_pageone_nytv.asp
Well, I missed the show, but read the transcript and the comments here. It is saddening that Rubel once again gets to take it on the chin for so many. Thank God that he lives his life as who he is called to be and doesn’t hide.
On the other hand I have gotten several e-mails that were not planning to flood CNN with forgiveness.
It seems to bring out the best and the worst.
For those of us who lean to the right politically, it’s not a shock that CNN ambushed someone with whom we agree, like Rubel. CNN, the New York Times, CBS, NBC and the like have been treating people on the right like this for years, examples to numerous to mention but you could see http://www.mrc.org for a very thorough list. With that being said, I’m very sorry that Rubel got ambushed and I think he handled it in a very graceful manner. Thank goodness it was on a CNN show, not a show on a network that most people watch.
Did anyone else catch Billy Smith from Freed-hardeman on Anderson Cooper 360 tonight? He was speaking about the love and forgiveness extended to Mary Winkler by Dan and Diane Winkler and their family. Cooper found it an incredible testimony. Praise God for what He s doing in and through them. We need to keep the family and community in our prayers.
Ed, Did you know that the people who lean-left believe that CNN, The New York Times, CBS, ABC and NBC are in the pocket of the right-wing administration? Just wanted to let you know…
Nancy Grace on the whole is considered a very conservative show.
What saddens me, is how active satan is. We have a clearly troubled woman. We have no idea how she is troubled… Depression? Abuse? Addiction? Dementia? We may NEVER know, and I am not wagering a guess. Speculations abound, as always “is she post partum?” or “was he beating her?” or “did she want the life insurance money?” We get caught up in the details that are inconsequential in our own lives, and satan has his window of opportunity.
Can you imagine how excited he must have been to use a mainstream media celebrity to attack us! And by “us” I do not mean the Church of Christ. For all we know, half of the viewers heard “Church of Christ” and assumed it was the United Church of Christ as they have been in the media so much lately.
The bottom line is, we are under attack, from all sides. Children of God are killing each other, committing suicide, cheating on their spouses, addicted to drugs, etc. Mix the media in, and satan doesn’t even have to lift a finger.
We need to band together in prayer and in action to prove to the world that we are simply Jesus followers. We don’t judge. We love each other. We treat each other better than we treat ourselves. Period.
Joel Maners asked: “Did anyone else catch Billy Smith from Freed-hardeman on Anderson Cooper 360 tonight?” I just learned about that this morning. I didn’t see the show but I did go straight to the transcript. Dr. Smith did a wonderful job of articulating the Winklers’ Christlike spirit of forgiveness, and–very important to me in light of Nancy Grace’s sensationalism–Cooper treated Smith with kindness and respect. I did not see either show, but only read the transcripts; still, Cooper’s demeanor and Grace’s were like day and night, respectively.
Thurman8tor,
Does Rubel believe that women should lead during worship? His answer on Nancy Grace where he said he was more broadminded and such in his views led me to believe that he does.
If he doesn’t, please let me know.
If anyone missed the whole drama, I have links to all the transcripts, pertinent quotes from them, a little background on Tom Rhukala (the Baptist minister who doesn’t care much for us) and some snarky comments along the way.
Love your blog, Mike. Not sure why God felt Rubel needed to be the one in the Coliseum instead of you, but I felt he did a very good job all things considered and we all owe him a great debt. That’s a particularly a