I know this seems strange, but over the break I’ve been doing some reading of works by atheists. I’m not in the market for conversion. But I also want to hear what’s being said.
There are some resources online, such as “Why Does God Hate Amputees?” There are even videos on YouTube such as this one or this one.
Again, I think it’s obvious that I’m not in agreement with what’s said. But in order to “give a reason for the hope that’s in us,” we need to know what unbelievers are saying. Scripture recognized long ago that the big battle isn’t against atheism but against idolatry (reducing God by trying to find life in someone or something other than God). But still, I’ve wanted to know what voices are out there, rather than just assuming some stereotype.
Last year I read Sam Harris’s The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason
Harris begins by talking about the irony of the Christian assumption that their faith is primarily about love and forgiveness.
“The truth is that many who claim to be transformed by Christ’s love are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism. While we may want to ascribe this to human nature, it is clear that such hatred draws considerable support from the Bible. How do I know this? The most disturbed of my correspondents [since the release of The End of Faith] always cite chapter and verse.”
He opens with this honest declaration: “Either the Bible is just an ordinary book, written by mortals, or it isn’t. Either Christ was divine, or he was not. . . . So let us be honest with ourselves: in the fullness of time, one side is really going to win this argument, and the other side is really going to lose.” (I’m reminded here of Pascal’s famous “wager argument”!)
Here is a frontal blow from Harris as he considers how nations of the world are willing to kill each other over their holy books and their confident interpretations:
“The idea that the Bible is a perfect guide to morality is simply astounding, given the contents of the book. Admittedly, God’s counsel to parents is straightforward; whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod (Proverbs 13:24, 20:30, and 23:13-14). If they are shameless enough to talk back to us, we should kill them (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark 7:9-13, and Matthew 15:4-7). We must also stone people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, worshipping graven images, practicing sorcery, and a wide variety of other imaginary crimes.”
What about Christianity — as set out in the New Testament?
“If you think that Christianity is the most direct and undefiled expression of love and compassion the world has ever seen, you do not know much about the world’s other religions. Take the religion of Jainism as one example. The Jains preach a doctrine of utter nonviolence. While the Jains believe many improbable things about the universe, they do not believe the sorts of things that lit the fires of the Inquisition. You probably think the Inquisition was a perversion of the ‘true’ spirit of Christianity. Perhaps it was. The problem, however, is that the teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. You are, of course, free to interpret the Bible differently — though isn’t it amazing that you have succeeded in discerning the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith failed?”
Harris is aghast at the way Christians talk about morality — usually about sex — while ignoring the relationship to suffering.
“Relieving suffering seems to rank rather low on your list of priorities. Your principal concern appears to be that the creator of the universe will take offense at something people do while naked. This prudery of yours contributes daily to the surplus of human misery. . . We now have a vaccine for HPV that appears to be safe and effective [in battling cervical cancer]. The vaccine produced 100 percent immunity in the six thousand women who received it as part of a clinical trial. And yet, Christian conservatives in our government have resisted a vaccination program on the grounds that HPV is a valuable impediment to premarital sex. These pious men and women want to preserve cervical cancer as an incentive toward abstinence, even if it sacrifices the lives of thousands of women each year.”
“Kids who are taught abstinence alone are less likely to use contraceptives when they do have sex, as many of them inevitably will. One study found taht teen ‘virginity pledges’ postpone intercourse for eighteen months on average — while, in the meantime, these virgin teens were more likely than their peers to engage in oral and anal sex. American teenagers engage in about as much sex as teenagers in the rest of the developed world, but American girls are four to five times more likely to become pregnant, to have a baby, or to get an abortion. Young Americans are also far more likely to be infected by HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. The rate of gonorrhea among American teens is seventy times higher than it is among their peers in the Netherlands and France. The fact that 30 percent of our sex-education programs teach abstinence only (at a cost of more than $200 million a year) surely has something to do with this. The problem is that Christians like yourself are not principally concerned about teen pregnancy and the spread of disease. That is, you are not worried about the suffering caused by sex; you are worried about sex.”
He scoffs at the idea that God answers our prayers:
“While many people of faith seem convinced that prayer can heal a wide variety of illnesses (despite what the best scientific research indicates), it is curious that prayer is only ever believed to work for illnesses and injuries that can be self-limiting. No one, for instance, ever seriously expects that prayer will cause an amputee to regrow a missing limb. Why not? Salamanders manage this routinely, presumably without prayer. If God answers prayer — ever — why wouldn’t he occasionally heal a deserving amputee? And why wouldn’t people of faith expect prayer to work in such cases?”
And he’s unmoved by personal testimonies about changes that have come into people’s lives:
“I have no doubt that your acceptance of Christ coincided with some very positive changes in your life. Perhaps you now love other people in a way that you never imagined possible. You may even experience feelings of bliss while praying. I do not wish to denigrate any of these experiences. I would point out, however, that billions of other human beings, in every time and place, have had similar experiences — but they had them while thinking about Krishna, or Allah, or the Buddha, while making art or music, or while contemplating the beauty of Nature.”
Well, there’s so much I’d like to say in response. When he says that “atheism is not a philosophy . . . it is simply an admission of the obvious,” I think he’s self-deceived. Isn’t that like an overly-confident declaration of being opposed to over-confidence? And when he’s utterly amazed that “80 percent of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God,” perhaps he should ask if there is more going on in this world than a scientist can test and a rationalist can figure out.
Why does faith flourish in pediatric oncology wings of hospitals? (It’s the question that led Dr. Diane Komp, a pediatric oncologist, back to faith.)
But having said that, I think Harris has done us a favor by writing honestly and clearly about what faith looks like from his perspective. He has pointed out some things that we must face if we’re going to have a voice in this world. I’d love to be in a study group with a bunch of university students working through this. I trust that our faith is not too fragile to face such arguments with compassion and truth.
His argument of the amputee is interesting as I have never heard that one before. My only response to that is that we, as Christians, do not have any example of something like that from the NT. We don’t see Jesus ever doing that. Of course, not the He couldn’t, we just never read of an example of that. I beleive that is why we don’t pray for that either.
Not sure if that is correct or not. It’s early.
Throughout the quoted sections, this atheist’s argument against the Bible is a fallacy (argument from consequences): “Because people justify bad things using the Bible, the Bible cannot be the perfect guide to morality.” That logic ignores the possibility that the flaw lies with the people and not with the Bible.
His argument against teaching abstinence hangs on the assumption that it is futile. Not only does he fail to prove that assumption, but we can offer many counterexamples.
When he argues that positive change can happen with or without the Christian belief system, he overlooks the fact that the primary benefit of becoming a Christian is forgiveness and reconciliation to God. Christianity is not primarily about improving my life on this earth. (1Co 15:19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.) Since the atheist only sees the physical, he misses the main point.
Hey Mike…..Thanks for the post…..you may have seen this but this week’s episode of Religion and Ethics newsweekly is about the mainstreaming of atheism. Great piece on Harris and Dawkins. You can see video of story here.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week1019/cover.html
The Sam Harrises of the world obviously have never had a carne con chile burrito at La Popular on Pine St. here in Abilene. If there were ever a post-resurrection, empirical demonstration of the reality of God, that $1.65 morsel is it. Mercy. qb
I read Harris’ book two months ago when I had 90 minutes to kill in a Barnes and Noble. I walked away that day thinking the same thought I’m thinking now — that even my faith (as Paul says) is a gift from God. Why do I believe when Harris does not? To be honest, I don’t know. Why I do have no problem declaring the Bible as God’s Word, and others might say it is a fairytale? Again, I don’t know.
What I do know is that God pursued me from the time I was in my mother’s womb. He placed me in a country where I would be exposed to Christianity. He placed me in a family where that exposure would be many times weekly. He placed me near teachers and wise men who helped me make sense of it all (He’s still placing me near these kind of people). If you embrace the Reformed theology idea of election, you might say that God is using Sam Harris for ignoble purpose, and me for more noble. If election is not your cup of tea — well, thank God that God makes sense to you.
Everyone has an agenda brought about by our upbringing and life experiences. It’s just too easy, naive, condescending, apolitical/areligious to point to Jesus, isn’t it?
I, too, wonder how I can have all the same thoughts/questions as Harris does & yet still choose to believe. I guess it’s because I have hope.
I like what one of my early professors had to say about challenges to faith. “Truth has nothing to fear from investigation.”
Also, I remember the words of Gamaliel in Acts 5:
“Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Peace.
Wow, I never thought you would review Sam Harris. I, too, have read both of his books. Thanks for bringing him to your discussion table. I always appreciate your opened mind and fairness with those who disagree with you. That is not common.
I do wish you had said more in response to his quotes b/c they are pretty heady. I am confused by the one response that you do offer. You write: “When he says that ‘atheism is not a philosophy . . . it is simply an admission of the obvious,’ I think he’s self-deceived.”
Believers in God have the burden of proof, not non-believers. The obvious–if you weren’t taught from childhood to believe–is not that God exists. People only believe this b/c they were taught it. Harris lays down some excellent reasons why he doesn’t believe (he was not taught as a child to believe.) As he writes, “Either a person has good reasons for what he believes or he doesn’t.” Why do believers believe? Do they have good reason? His answer is no.
Brian: you believe b/c your parents taught you to believe, not b/c God has given you the gift of faith. Why hasn’t he given Harris this gift? Is God playing favorites? And you say that God pursued you: how do you know this? Really, how do you know? Do you just feel it? Does the Bible tell you so?
A few years ago had I read something like Sam Harris’ book, I would have probably felt very threatened and gone into a defensive mode and been like one of those folks he describes citing chapter and verse about hating and murdering, etc. But now, I find myself very open and even welcoming of viewpoints and philosophies different from mine, giving me opportunities to explore and express my faith. I too, Mike , am appreciative of hearing how faith looks from his perspective. If my faith can’t hold up and give an answer of the hope that is within me, it is not a faith worth holding onto.
I think Harris helps us think through when and why religion goes wrong. Clearly, religion is like being a gun owner. You need to know where the “safety” is located so you don’t shoot yourself in the foot.
Research in Terror Management Theory in psychology I think helps us understand the problems with in religion Harris is concerned with. In one study two groups of Christians were assigned to one of two conditions. One group was made to reflect on their eventual death while the other group reflected on an innocuous topic. Each group then rated the qualities of both a Jewish and Christian target. The Christians in the control group rated both people as equally intelligent and moral. But the Christians who were made to reflect on their death rated the Jewish person less intelligent and less moral relative to the Christian counterpart. Why did this happen? Because it appears that some Christians hold their faith as a defense mechanism against death. Thus when that defense is shaken or unsettled we become unusually protective of it by becoming hostile to out-group members (people who believe differently from us) as well as, in some studies, hyper-intolerant about moral infractions. This defensive stance also explains the lack of critical thinking in churches; it is scary to examine the defensive faith system too closely, too many cracks would come to light. It also explains the Pollyannaism in the pews. In sum, this model explains lots of the behavior Harris is concerned about.
In my laboratory we’ve looked more closely at this “defensive believer.” The theological markers of this believer appear to be belief in the following:
1. Special protection (“I believe that fewer bad things will happen to me in this life because God is protecting me from harm”)
2. Special Insight (“God gives me clear and obvious signs to communicate His will to me”)
3. Divine Solicitousness (“Nothing is too small, like finding my lost keys, to pray to God about”)
4. Special Destiny (“God has a very specific plan for my life that I must search for and find”)
5. Denial of Randomness (“God controls every event around us, down to the smallest details”)
Examples are items from the Defensive Theology Scale we’ve developed at ACU. The scale seems to peg the particular kind of believer Harris is describing.
There is much more to say but this comment is now way too long…
Thanks for the post. It is very valuable to study views from other people’s perspectives. My general experience with atheists is that they will do exactly like Harris, insisting on the inadequacies of Christianity. They love to point out that there is a lack of evidence. What they can’t usually tell you is how much evidence they would consider to be enough evidence, since they’ve started with the conclusion that Christianity can’t possibly be true.
In the end, we don’t have ‘proof’, but I really believe we do have evidence strong enough to where we can have faith in God that is not based on superstition or believing in the easter bunny. I am unconvinced that a person has to abandon logic and sound thinking to follow Jesus Christ, because many of the world’s greatest thinkers were and are Christians. I’d like to see you write some more of your thoughts on this subject as you reach some conclusions.
I happened to see Sam Harris on the View yesterday. Didn’t know who he was or why he wan even on the show. I caught the last 2 minutes of it where Rosie O’donnel says that Sam Harris is the one who got her and her girlfriend/wife together on a double date with his partner. The show ended with that being the only thing I knew about this Sam Harris. Then to read quotes out of his book on here makes me feel even more sorry for him.
Martin F. — I want to reconsider what you said to Brian — that he believes because of His parents, not because of God’s gift. I must admit that reformed theology comes out in me in these discussions, but it bothers me so much that the Arminian heritage that I’ve been in for nearly 30 years emphasizes so much what WE do and not how God creates faith in us, by His grace. I go back to Eph. 2 — if we’re dead in our sins, how can we be made alive but through the work of the Holy Spirit. And we’re kept by the power of God, says 1 Peter.
I’m just wondering if our flesh (i.e., pride). fights against this truth of God’s sovereignty and election. I’m just thinking this out loud and realize that our minds are so limited in understanding all of this. But I do know that it is so comforting and assuring to me that the very truth that I do believe in Jesus is a sign that I’m saved.
Regarding Harris, in my 23 or so years of pastoral ministry, I’ve found that unbelievers have been deeply hurt in life, or by Christians and churches. It’s not just a philosophical issue they’re wrestling with . It is a cry of a wounded and frustrated heart. Reminds me of a dear friend who had a profound impact on my walk with the Lord — an amazing prayer warrior. Then he went through a heart-shattering divorce, left the area, and now says that after studying mountains of books on psychology and philosophy he know longer believes in Christ, prayer, heaven, etc.
Mike -
There’s been a great response among the theistic community to the recent spate of strident pro-atheist evangelists. See here for a great link
I must admit that I had not heard of Harris even though there was a time when I was really into what the atheists had to say. To me my biggest challange is prayer and what exactly does it do. I don’t have much to add, but look forward to following the posts. I am one of those people who often cries out, “I believe, help my unbelief.”
Most of it doesn’t try to disprove Christianity as much as slam us. He’s not creating art - he’s vandalizing ours.
Some of it is deserved. More thoughtful and reasonable non-Christians than Sam Harris question why Christians aren’t, well, Christ-like. Harris comes off like a brat making this point.
Using historical stuff out of context is dirty pool. The Jewish Law is 3300 years old and was cutting-edge good justice at the time. If Sam Harris can show me a Code of Law that is more just and predates Jewish Law, I’d like to see it.
To me, he comes off like a bitter man.
I think I will go read this whole book now. Thank you.
Bill Johnson at the Bethel Church in Redding, CA has seen limbs regrown by God through prayer - instantly…and his church prays for it when they have the opportunity so Harris’ assertation that we do not pray for this because we apparently do not think that the Lord would/could regrow a limb is wrong.
Mark: Harris’ point is not the inadequacies of Christianity. That’s just an aside of his. Cope’s blog just stresses that from Harris’ writings. Harris’ point is that you can offer no proof for the existence of God. Richard Dawkins would challenge you to prove that God exists and the Easter Bunny doesn’t. Dawkins says you can’t prove/disprove either.
Jim Clark: How do you know that God creates faith in us by his grace? (Not trying to be smart here, I just think this is a good question of something that most Christians just accept.) Harris says that your arguments for that come from a very old book that is full of many of the same myths as other very old books. And none can be proven. You just have to accept them–without proof. But you hit the crux of your belief: comfort and hope. This has caused people throughout history to believe in myths b/c reality is difficult. Myths help us deal with a very difficult reality. Harris doesn’t come off to me as having a “wounded and frustrated heart.” To me he is a man who is at complete peace with what he believes, yet is very worried about what those who have blind faith in something they can not prove. Notice many of the comments just in this thread: people don’t know why they believe; they just do. The Christian faith was handed to them by someone they respect at some point in the past.
Brian and Jim Clark,
It would be nice to make faith a gift from God, but grammatically or theologically that doesn’t hold up. Grammatically, the subject of Ephesians 2 is salvation, not faith. Salvation is 1) by grace 2) through faith 3) a gift of god 4) not the results of works, etc. I’m not trying to make the man’s part, God’s part argument here, but faith is my sole response, my humble acceptance of the grace given me by Jesus Christ.
Thanks for sharing this information. I don’t take enough time to read the differing views of faith (or non-faith) in the world–I wish that I was better about it, and would also love to be in a study group on such ideas.
I find that argument about amputees so odd, and it touches me personally in a profound way. I have a younger sister that lost both of her feet (and other body parts) because of the carelessness that existed in a life guided more by the world than by Christ. She has an amazing faith in God, and doesn’t dwell on a desire to see her limbs regrown. She loves how God has allowed her to become the person she is, and on the days when life is a little darker and she’s not as grateful (as we all are sometimes). . .it’s because of the despair the world lets seep into our lives. It is not because she thinks God has let her down.
And yes, we were raised in a family of faith that taught us to believe in God. However, as an adult, my belief is not based on what my parents or Sunday school teachers said. It is based on what I know to be true. My heart and spirit and mind confirm my belief system everyday. I don’t know what I would say to someone like Harris if I ever met him, but I hope that he sees beauty in this life and that he knows people who are kind and giving. I really hope that he gets to witness someone relieving the suffering of another because they truly comprehend the gift of relief they have received from Christ. I pray that he gets to see what power there is in absolute selfless sacrifice. He makes good challenges to things about Christianity that confuse the world. If we could only spend more hours taking action to reconcile the mistakes we’ve made in the name of religion throughout history. . .what an amazing Kingdom of God could exist on this earth!
Thanks, again, for the mental challenge today.
This stuff is way good, way alerting, and way important. Some of it slaps the nonsense out of our heritagological debates showing several issues really don’t count.
One of the things I realize regarding what you reveal from Harris is the reality our stance on faith is a very wobbly position. We could topple easily. The whole idea that the only Son was born of a virgin and pounded to death at the stake, only to arise three days later is just about as far out as one can possibly get. Therefore, no one in their right mind could accept such an incredible story.
Faith, however, says it’s all true and none of us can prove it in court. I got such info from the Word. It did call me. That’s it. The Harrises break my heart. They are sure their info is superior. I feel they will be disappointed. Proving isn’t the contest. Believing in the Invisible without tangible witness is the issue…..I think.
Mike,
Just wanted to voice my appreciation for this post. I actually picked up Harris’ book (Letter to a Christian Nation) a couple of months ago and found it interesting, eye-opening, etc. as well and very similar to the way my family thinks and acts.
At this point in my life I’ve been a “pagan” more than a Christ-follower (21 years without Christ — 13 years with) and I qualify as one of those people that really struggles with “church people”. But at the same time I’ll say something or do something and I’ll realize that I’m becoming one of them!!
So that’s part of the reason I liked reading Harris’ book — it helped me kind of reconnect with where I’ve been in my own life and kind of reaffirmed my appreciation for and the joy found in knowing Jesus.
And I just think it’s really cool that you’re willing to tackle and address these kinds of issues instead of running away from them — which seems to be what so many people within the church do. Creating an “us v. them” mentality that hinders and cripples our ability to share the gospel in word and deed.
Here’s another way Harris helps us.
A fundamental virtue required for Christian unity is epistemic humility.
For example, compare the topic of this post with the issue of a cappella music in Mike’s last post. As a first tier issue, God’s existence is an open question. Intelligent and moral people differ on this issue. To then launch off and make extraordinarily precise statements about God’s preferences (”God rejects anything but a cappella music,” “God would be angry if there were women preachers,” etc.) seems wildly presumptuous to me when the Big Question is hotly disputed and still on the table, so to speak.
Harris reminds us that we walk by faith, not a blind faith, but a faith that should be marked by curiosity, openness, and humility.
I agree that this little book is definitely worth reading. I came across it in a bookstore recently and found it hard to put down, so I read it all. I blogged about it and am glad you reminded me about it Mike, because I want to spend some more time considering what Harris has to say.
I don’t want to go through life just believing what my parents taught me. I want to know Truth. If our faith can’t withstand tough questions, what is it worth?
I thought he had some very interesting things to say about abortion, stem-cell research, world-wide suffering, and evolution. Although we would like to believe otherwise, the issues aren’t always black and white.
Excellent thoughts, Terry. Last night at church, as we gathered in different groups for prayer, a mentally challenged man who is a fairly new believer led the most beautiful prayer in our group. He was crying as he thought of how Jesus loved him so much and that he is now His child. It seems to me that it was more than intellect that brought him to this point. It was the Holy Spirit working in a man with childlike faith. He taught me a lot last night about simply trusting Jesus and taking Him at His word.
Someone once asked Jim Woodroof to cite 1 indisputable proof of the existence of God. He simply replied, “The Jews!” The more I think of it, the more I realize how right that answer is. The fact that ANYone believes is an amazing act of God. If we have faith, we need to thank God because faith is His gift to us. It is not something that we somehow figure out on our own. If we ever figure that out, it will totally change our approach to evangelism.
AtlantaBob, just curious, have you read any of Harris’ work? If not, then why call him a brat? Also, the Torah is very old, but the Law of Hammurabi predates it by anywhere from 500-1000 years. The Torah says some of the very same things as Hammurabi’s. And “cutting edge good justice”? Are you serious? The Torah orders those who don’t believe in YHWH to be killed; if in any Israelite city, contains those kinds of people, then the whole city is to be destroyed (Deut 13). Are you saying that is good justice? And remember, Jesus came not to do away with that, but to uphold it, at least according to Matt.
TerryRush: you make an interesting comment which happens to be one of Harris’ points: FAITH says it is all true, even though it can’t be proven. EVERY religion says that same thing. And they have their own “Words” (religious scriptures) to back them up too. The Sam Harris’ are so sure that their info. is superior b/c they don’t rely on faith, but facts. And yes, there is a lot that science can’t explain right now, but give it a little time. We are now explaining things as natural acts that once were thought to be acts of God. For many, the God of the gaps is getting smaller and smaller.
Just a quick clarification to my previous post (#5) …
I do not believe because of my parents, or because of my birth country, or because of the wise men I have encountered. My belief is due to some combination of God desiring that I believe, and my desire to believe. I admit that I don’t understand where one ends and the other begins. I do believe that my faith is a gift from God, and that I should not boast in it.
Scripture says (don’t have my Bible or my QuickVerse software handy) that creation is without excuse (lack of faith) because God is evidenced in it. Scripture also cross-references itself many times (prophecy). So, I would say that belief does come from the Word of God (and the aforementioned gift of faith). If you doubt that the Bible is God’s Word, I can’t imagine you can believe in God.
I find it quite disturbing that people think this atheist is helping us by arguing against faith in God.
Psa 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
Pro 14:7 Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge.
The atheist is not an asset to the Christian. His message is not wisdom from above.
None of what you quoted from that book surprises me. I applaud you for reading what I would never be able to stomach. A few years ago I was participating in an online discussion among libertarians when I made comments against the “Christian” acts of hatred and spoke in favor of liberty. A couple of atheists on the list were stunned. They had never been in contact with a Christian who didn’t start quoting chapter and verse against their unbelief (why quote what they don’t believe?) and who actually said that serious errors had taken place and are occuring in history because of misinterpretations of the faith of Christ. And I’m not particularly liberal. A little love and listening can go a long way. Are we so scared that the Gospel is too weak or that Christ needs defending? Is He just a tottering idol we need to strain to keep standing, or is He the living Lord of all Creation?
No time to read all the comments today, but I thank you Mike for taking the bull by the horns with this post. I guess it all boils down to that one question…do you believe or not? That one response, no matter how weak or strong, colors everything.
And yes I have had some of the same thoughts and questions as Harris but somehow the answers lived out always lead me to a point of greater faith. On paper the case for Christ just looses something…it has to be lived. To know God is a relational experience…to try to know him through what is written in books or proclaimed by others… well I can see how hard that could be.
Joel Maners said, “Someone once asked Jim Woodroof to cite 1 indisputable proof of the existence of God. He simply replied, “The Jews!” The more I think of it, the more I realize how right that answer is.”
Jim may have gotten that from Mark Twain, who said the same thing over a hundred years ago. MT (Clemens) himself was a skeptic, but made the same remark.
Mike, it’s interesting that you bring up these books now. We just started a Sunday morning class last Sunday in which Monte Cox brought both of these books as a basis for the start of the class. I look forward to delving deeper into this. Many of the comments there and posts here are parallel.
I think it’s important to remember that it has only been about 500 years that we’ve been thinking (or even capable of thinking) of our universe in mechanical terms (the Age of Reason). Our modernity determines the playing field here–determines Harris’ playing field. There is an assumption that “figuring out” rationally is inherently better and more reliable than submitting humbly. Both have to do with attentiveness, but in different ways and for different ends. If I pay close attention in order to distill and construct towers of theology and explanation, I’m just another self aggrandizing Nimrod building my Babel. However, humble attention to the hand behind the creation… to the word behind the wind and the breath–in order to become what the creator intended–leads me in a drastically different direction. Harris doesn’t understand what faith is because we (Christians) often are guilty of building a Babel-Religion that argues pseudo-scientifically with the scientists because we really are more a product of modernity in most ways than a product of the Spirit’s work.
In the past, Christendom’s Babel has often been imperialism (we conquer, build and coerce conversion)… now, most of us try to rationalize the world into faith. That’s a bit like trying to trick someone into trust–it is self-defeatingly ironic.
When I see as the Bible sees, then what I see is that unbelief is not an intellectual conclusion, but a spiritual condition. Can someone rationally get at the truth, when he/she hates it?
If I consistently stick with that way of seeing (is it possible, given my setting?), then for one thing I don’t buy the notion that tradition should be the accused and that deified reason and current sensibilities should be the judges. Why not the other way around? (I know, I know. Can’t always pull that off, but I can at least ask).
All that to say, How should Christianity itself qualify the ground rules of any discussions a Christian might have with someone like Harris? Is it necessary for believers to take up the evidentialist challenge? Must we have only rational beliefs, grounded in a high level of certitude, or else give up those beliefs? I’m no longer willing to sign up for that. 1st Peter 3 doesn’t call me to prove the existence of God or defend the reality of miracles. It calls me to explain my hope to someone who sees that it makes a difference in me, and who bothers to ask me about it.
Blue Like Jazz - author set up a booth on a predominantly atheist campus, to apologize for the inquisition and other sins committed in the name of Christ. results were interesting. thought it was a cool approach which opened some healthy dialogue.
By the way, somewhere in Barth there’s this great passage where he points out the dilemmas and disobedience involved in trying to prove to an unbeliever that there’s a God. I haven’t decided if I hate natural theology as much as Barth did. (It still sounds to me like there’s some of it in the Bible). But I have found that his perspective helps me identify where it is that I’m thinking less like the Lord God and more like John Locke.
Martin F,
“Give science time” I think that we have been giving science a lot of time and a lot of voice, and the world is not getting better. (and I have a degree in biology, so I am familiar with and a friend to science!) Wouldn’t you admit that the bottom line is that “the Harrises” are putting faith in facts as much as others are putting faith in God?
I think it is telling that in the wake of disaster, it is the Church that responds to the need of the world in a way that the world itself doesn’t understand. Ask New Orleans who is rebuilding the city and helping the poor.
Brian, you might possibly be referring to Romans 1:19-20. Once you’ve read it, thought about it, dwelled on it, even put it to the test, how can you not believe? TerryRush - after Rms 1:19-20, I can think of something more far out than Christ’s birth, death, and resurrection -that would be evolution.
Read the rest of Romans 1 and what do you see? Sam Harris! Sam knows God, he has just exchanged God’s truth for a lie.
Brad, I would point you to a couple of verses that say faith is a gift: Specifically, 1 Cor. 12:9 where faith is listed as a gift of the Spirit, and less specifically, Romans 12:3 where Paul says that God assigns faith to us.
Kristen, you beat me to it. I’ve actually been around some other similar things myself, though not the regrowing of a limb. If Harris has a point here, it is that Christians lack faith to pray for the miraculous because we, like everyone else, fear failure.
Mike, thanks for caring enough to read the thoughts of atheists and treat them with respect and warding off an “us against them” mentality.
Has anyone read Harry Frankfurt’s book On Bullshit?
Frankfurt’s main analysis is that bullshit differs from a lie in that where a lie is at least interested in the truth (if only to hide it) the bullshitter is indifferent to truth.
I think Harris’ problem, and I share his concerns, is that there is just too much bullshit in Christianity. That is, despite our claims to hold the “truth,” we show an astonishing lack of curiosity and critical thinking about our beliefs. And as long as that is the case we just won’t be taken seriously by outsiders. I’m continually astonished by the things people say on this blog and in the church. I’m constantly scratching my head wondering, “Do people really believe that?”
Frank: You wrote, “Must we have only rational beliefs, grounded in a high level of certitude, or else give up those beliefs? I’m no longer willing to sign up for that.” This is one of Harris’ points: Christians don’t have rational beliefs. . . and they don’t care; they are fine with that! And Frank, you illustrate this. Is there really something so bad about trying to have rational beliefs?
Jordan Hubbard: You say the world is not getting “better” b/c of science. But aren’t people living longer, healthier lives? We no longer live in fear of certain diseases, thanks to science. Isn’t our understanding of the natural world increasing every day? Isn’t our physical labor load much easier than in the past? Isn’t travel better? I would ask you–very seriously: Western Civilization has been under the thumb of Christianity for the last 1700 years: has our civilization become “better” b/c of that? And about Katrina, why do you think that only Christians are concerned about helping those victims? Compassion wasn’t invented by Western religions.
I have had a little more time to think so I want to jump in again. I grew up in the days when Dr. Thomas Warren was the mentor of Rubel Shelly. In spite of how off the wall many people think Rubel was then, probably Rubel himself, there was something going on in our fellowship that I think has pretty much died out. We were serious about defending our faith. Here I am not talking about all the fights we used to have with the Baptist and Methodists, but defending our faith against the kind of non-believers you have mentioned today. I fear that we have just given up and now live in our own little subjective worlds. I went to the “why God hates amputees” website and a real challange was laid down that I doubt few have even a close to rational answer for. We need more well trained Christian apologists who know how to deal with the arguments presented. The prayer argument is no weak argument. I struggle with it all the time. I once went to see the grandmother of a six year old boy killed in a car accident. There were several children badly injured, but he was the only one who died. She looked and me and told me that she prayed for her grandson everyday, especially for his safety. Then she asked me why was God not listening that day. Mike, your son lived on that tragic day that we all remember so well, but one didn’t. I am sure that thousands of people prayed for your son and give credit to prayer for his recovery, but what about the boy who died? I know that you cannot prove the existence of God, but I fear that we have become so experiential and subjective in our religion that we have thrown rational argument out the window. I think your post is as much as anything a wakeup call. There are people out there that don’t give a flip about our feel good totally subjective stories about what God did for us. They are asking tough questions and I fear that many of us have nothing to say. I know that I sound like I am one step away from loosing my own faith. Not a chance, but I am afraid that our post modern abandonment of reason is going to cost us dearly. Rubel, if you are out there jump in brother.
thanks for this post, mike. it is a kind and sane approach to a challenging thought process. once i get over my initial impulse for some harris rebuttal, i start to see the presuppositions on both sides that can derail a discussion. Richard B, you make a great point; thanks for throwing that in. i was trained in using a clearly defined exegetical model for biblical research, and i have historically put a lot of confidence in that. so has my cofc heritage. more recently, i have seen both its value and its limitations. even as i say that, i see that my rational (western) approach to understanding the old testament has led me to a deeper appreciation of its roots in the eastern mindset. i believe one should be careful about making totally western conclusions about a document whose thought process is rooted in the ancient near east. i believe harris and others miss the point when they read the old testament outside of that context.
Richard B, you took the words right out of my mouth. Right on.
Wow! You need to have surgery more often.
Great thougths here and in the comments. I have to second SG’s comment above - she said it so well.
I guess I am glad that my salvation doesn’t hinge on getting everything right. I say this because this guy sizes up Christianity from the outside and though I disagree he makes logical assumptions. I guess that the logic of men only goes so far. I remember hearing John Willis preaching a sermon on the hidden powers of the cross some time ago, and one thing that stuck out that for me is applicable here is we know how things work but we really don’t know why they work the way they do. It is easy at times for Christians to say God is God and I don’t know why but I will praise him, I can only assume that for an atheist it isn’t that easy
Richard, Frankfurt’s On Truth looks pretty good as well … have you read it?
From Booklist:
I think much of the same can be said of the church.
I like when Harris asks the question “What would it take for Christians to call God unloving?” I think that was the point of the Katrina example.
If God has power to act and doesn’t when does he become unloving or just become unreal? We ascribe our concept of love to God yet this very rarely describes a God who is all powerful.
Most Christians never truly examine their faith because the question of God’s existence is never put on the table. It is a beginning assumption.
I like Sam Harris’s books. He nails it. Our current definition of God does not hold water in a critically thinking world. Might as well sleep in on Sunday, it’ll do ya more good.
Hey Martin,
I’ve heard a lot about Harris but have never invested the time in reading him. I really liked the Richard Dawkins/Francis Collins conversation in Time, November ‘06. I guess you could say I liked Dawkins more. I don’t know how to clarify that I think he sounds like a brat - it’s my opinion.
Hammurabi definitely predates Moses by 500 years. I don’t think the Code of Hammurabi is as just as the Torah. Two examples, both showing how the Torah is more egalitarian than Hammurabi. The punishments required by the Torah are not status determined, while in H you get, “If an upper-class man has destroyed the eye of a member of the aristocracy, then… If he has destroyed the eye of a commoner, then…” Also, the Torah protects the widows, orphans, poor and strangers to a greater extent than H.
I never said it was good justice in the context of 2007 - I do think it was enlightened for it’s time. But Harris shouldn’t throw primitive Jewish justice in my face 3300 years later. It’s dirty pool.
If Harris wants to be critical of Deuteronomy, he should compare it with pagan law that is contemporary. I think God holds up nicely in that context.
Josh,
Good points, though both of those texts aren’t addressing the faith of Ephesians 2, which was being pointed to earlier. In regards to salvation, my acceptance of God’s saving grace is said to be solely by faith, which is a decision I make in my heart to turn things over to Him and a trust that He’ll take care of it. I can’t earn it, I can’t prove that I’m worthy, I can’t impress God enough with any kind of godly effort. That’s the faith that originates with me in my heart.
The texts you mentioned do show another, I don’t know if “type” is a good word, but another aspect maybe, of faith. From 1 Cor 12 and Rom 12 it is clear that God gifts “some” with an extraordinary level of faith, a special ability to trust, to see the unseen, a gift from God in order to serve the body in a particular fashion. Praise God we have men and women in our churches who have the “gift of faith” that propels others to bigger, better, and unseen things in God’s kingdom.
Good discussion, all.
Richard B,
I want to come to Abilene, if for no other reason, than to meet the man who stood up on this blog and called bullshit exactly what it is.
I was dating a girl that went to HU. She lived near the MS gulf coast, and after Katrina, didn’t hear from her parents for two weeks. When she called me and told me that she heard from her folks and they were ok, I was relieved. Then she said “and its so obvious that God was protecting our house because so many people were praying for it” (her hosue was the only one in her neighborhood without damage). After the third time she said that, I said, C*****, you probably should be careful who you say that to, because there are plenty of people who prayed just as hard, who’s houses are underwater or completely washed away at this point. Probably someone at your school.
And that was pretty much the end of the relationship.
But I see that mentality so much amongst believers, and it saddens me. We’ve lost any ability to think critically, and we are scared to death of anything disproving our faith, so we just ignore it. If you truely have faith, why be scared of science?
I picked up Harris’ book in the Austin airport a few weeks ago and nearly bought it. I think it’s so important that we not only read atheists’ questions for us, but we interact personally with those who do not share even our belief in a deity. This happened (kind of by surprise) to me a few months ago, when an atheist who reads my blog posed several questions for Christians. It was a fascinating dialogue, which you can read here: http://harvestboston.net/20060822/questions-for-christians/. As a result of that dialogue, my friend Ben (who is a church planter in northern New Jersey / NYC) and our atheist friend started an on-going Christian-Atheist dialogue called “philaletheia” (http://philaletheia.thetruthtree.com/ … ”love of truth”) that seeks to get past the militant history between Christians and atheists to a more constructive and loving conversation.
It’s amazing to an atheist, for instance, to discover that not all American Christians are fans of war who hate gay people and want only to push their religion on anyone who’ll listen. This comes as a genuine surprise to many atheists (as well as non-Christians of all kinds) because unfortunately, they have had only negative experiences with Christians. My conclusion is that few atheists will join the way of Jesus by rational propositions, but maybe — just maybe — a Christian’s conduct and love in such dialogues will show just enough of Jesus to peak their interest.
On a different note, whoever said that “thinking” and “being a Christian” were mutually exclusive? I agree with Richard and others above who stressed the need for Christians to think long and hard about why they believe what they believe. We also need to take seriously the barriers people have to “believing in God.” That’s a huge step! Some people come to God in a blinding light experience, and others choose the way of the cross more calculatingly and rationally. Both are valid, and I think we see both in Scripture. I’m just afraid I sense some of our tradition’s anti-intellectualism seeping back in, replaced by a happy-clappy cliché that says, “just believe!”
There is a great new blog out there that is trying to have a civil, open discussion about matters of faith between a believer and an atheist. Check it out: http://philaletheia.thetruthtree.com/
AtlantaBob is right, the Time interview he referenced (available here) has Dawkins displaying considerably more “epistemic humility” (thank you Richard B) than usual. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that he is having a face-to-face discussion with a robust Christian intellectual like Francis Collins rather than writing to the masses and trying to sell his wares.
I’ve been over this about a million times now in my own head. Dawkins, Collins and Harris all have faith (nobody operates without it). If you want to walk away from God, you can come up with many compelling reasons to do so; if you want to believe, there are many compelling reasons to stay.
The questions then become: which faith do you want? Indeed, which faith will you choose?
As to why I continue to believe, it is all a very deep mystery to me.
I’ll have a go at answering the closing question: “Why does faith flourish in pediatric oncology wings of hospitals?”
My view: because there are few things more heartbreaking and distressing than children with potentially terminal illnesses - more to the parents than the children, it seems (if the media portrayal of children with cancer is reliable). Compound that with the uncertain prognoses and the very visible side-effects of treatment e.g. loss of hair, things can indeed look bleak.
It’s very understandable that people look for comfort and certainty in times of distress. This is also the origin of the saying “there are no atheists in foxholes”: the idea that people turn to religion in times of stress. Comforting as that may be, I think it’s important to recognise that you are “not yourself” in such circumstances: your judgement is impaired.
With the sincerest sympathy, I would advise those in distress that that is not the time to make life-changing decisions. Instead, I think it’s better to think about the issues and clarify your position while you are best able - when you have time to think, with no pressure or distress. That is: now, not later, it will serve to fortify your personal philosophy against getting bent out of shape when times are difficult.
We frown on “ambulance-chaser” lawyers who follow accident victims to hospitals, taking advantage of their distress to finagle them in to signing retainers. I take as harsh a view of clerics who offer religious platitudes to those who are affected by illness, injury or other hardships, who prey on immobile patients at their bedsides. To be blunt: they are taking advantage of people in their distress, offering them viral falsehoods in the form of comfort, which they are less able to resist in their weakened states. Vultures!
Martin, it’s not that I don’t think that reason has a place in the life of a Christian. But I do reject the notion that reason must be the first and final arbiter. Does ANYONE live like that? Really? Must we be converted into some sort of Lockean foundationalists, and that before we can come to and stay in Christ?
When we regard disbelief as the wrong answer to a math question or a puzzle of logic, we have misunderstood both unbelief and our own faith. And maybe that’s the problem. Maybe too many Christians don’t take God at his Word when he tells us that unbelievers have exchanged the truth of God for a lie. That is not some innocent inexperience that people can be educated or argued out of. To be without God is to be deprived of the Truth. Why should the church speak and act as though that’s not the real score?
Kristen, Really - you know a man who has SEEN limbs regrow… REALLY??? Why was it not in the news, in a magazine, on a blog, or documented anywhere? Did you see it, or just hear about it? Please…
All:
Check out this article http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110009482 Basically, the author says that the new atheism has no new arguments, but they make up for it in mean-spiritedness.
I saw Harris on a TV debate with Hugh Hewitt and Harris did not do very well at all. Perhaps it was the TV lights.
Brian T. — I know a lot of ministers, and I have never seen one “take advantage” of those who are affected by illness, injury or other hardships. I HAVE seen them sit with them, clean up after them, love them, pray for them, weep with them, and comfort them.
Vultures??? I think not. That’s offensive.
Mike,
Good post. We have an atheist coming to our new church plant. He has begun to read a bible and pray. Although he is skeptical I have noticed that he is like many who have been hurt by Christian hypocrisy. He is dating a young girl who has been brought up in the “church.” Thing is, this has challenged her to examine what she believes. Our conversations are on basic apologetics–stuff that led me to Christ. She sees how protected she has been.
She is also pressured by others in a church. They criticize her for dating him. While it is not always the best thing to date an unbeliever–we look at the potential and how he is moving forward. The key is still relationships. If we demonize “atheists” we will never develop relationships and help them deal with their anger at God and the church.
Ron Clark
Portland, OR
I find it interesting that quantum physicists can seriously discuss — in the form of string theory — the reality of an unknown number of “dimensions” that we can’t see or feel or touch, but somehow people who suggest a metaphysical reality are “irrational.”
Mike..if people say to me that they have healed people through prayer then I want to say, Well, what are you doing wasting time here talking to me..there’s alot of children dying of cancer you could be healing as we speak. This subject requires much thought and a lack of understanding on my part. Jesus promises us both suffering and peace and it seems that when I listen to some they seem on fire to alleviate suffering.
On Tuesday night, I had the privilege of listening to a preacher named John Bishop. He has an amazing testimony and his ministry is ministering to hurting people because he is one. His “mottos” is “God is always good and God is always right.”
One thing he said that really stuck with me & presented the scripture in a new light to me was basically that the Bible tells us that we are to give a reason for the HOPE that is within us, not that we are to give a reason of why the circumstances are what they are. I’m so glad God does not need me to be His defender. He also said that he is glad he has a God that is not simple enough to be understood by us!
I agree!
Sam Harris as a speaker for his views is amazing. I have read The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation as well as have a lecture he gave out in Irvine, California. If I did not believe in God Sam would be my go-to guy for arguments.
I am encouraged that you are reading him. So many in the Christian community are affraid to delve into ideas and views that don’t exactly jive with what we believe. But I believe an outside look at our faith and how we live can only be helpful in learning how to show Jesus to people around us better.
Hey Mike… you said you’d like a forum to discuss these kinds of things with college student? Well, you could audit the class Randy Harris and my dad teach that is a bioethics class. I hear it’s pretty awesome!
I picked up Harris’ book in the Austin airport a few weeks ago and nearly bought it. I think it’s so important that we not only read atheists’ questions for us, but we interact personally with those who do not share our belief in a deity.
I agree with Richard and others above who stressed the need for Christians to think long and hard about why they believe what they believe. We also need to take seriously the barriers people have to “believing in God.” That’s a huge step! Some people come to God in a blinding light experience, and others choose the way of the cross more calculatingly and rationally. Both are valid, and I think we see both in Scripture. Skeptics don’t want to hear our pre-packaged, Family Christian Stores answers. They scoff at happy-clappy clichés that say things like, “just believe!” or on arguments that create guilt for not blindly believing.
Take, for example, the e-mail received by the father of a friend of mine from an inquisitive skeptic. It’s very telling, I think, of the wrestling match many people go through to “just believe”:
I would again point people to a site set up by a Christian friend of mine and an atheist fellow following a lengthy dialogue on my blog a few months ago (which generated nearly 100 comments).
philaletheia [dot] thetruthtree [dot] com
This thread captures a lot of things I’ve been mulling over lately (in fact, it spurred me to finally get around to expounding on them on my own blog). It strikes me as a bit ironic that members of the Christian community often cite various physical “evidences” and personal experiences as logical, nearly irrefutable proof of God, yet we accuse non-believers of being illogical, arrogant God-haters when they hold to “evidences” and experiences they feel support their claims. Although I feel some typical Christian arguments in these matters are valid (and some aren’t), there’s no way to prove in a hardfast, rational, empirical way that we’re right. And, as others have noted, feel-good personal testimonies often carry little weight for skeptics–heck, they sometimes carry very little weight for me. No matter how many physical/logical evidences we can muster, or how many God-touched experiences we have, there comes a point when we have to choose to follow God despite limited knowlege, despite inexplicable sufferings. To me, that’s the essence of faith. Frankly, that doesn’t set well with our Western, Englightenment-washed thinking that demands an understanding of anything and everything. And it’s that demand of understanding that leads some people to attempt to posit explanations for God’s ways (but as LDB noted, God doesn’t ask us to be His defender) that may seem logical at times but are in no way verifiable, and for others to choose to not believe in Him. To add to another of LDB’s thoughts, I genuinely believe that what will bolster our faith the most and will touch the non-believer most powerfully is for us to give a reason for our hope, to proclaim the message of the cross, and to actively live out Christ-centered, service-filled lives.
I watched a couple of those YouTube videos about why Christianity is a delusion or what have you. Didn’t shake my faith one bit. Praise God!
These atheists are foolish…Why don’t they believe like we do? Because they are natural man. Let’s not be surprised when natural men act like natural men…. such were we. Think back on your own conversion experience, especially if you were not raised in the church. Your mind has since been transformed.
It takes the power of God through the Holy Ghost for a man to be converted, born again, saved (whatever word you like.) Our “logical” arguments aren’t going to convert them. We need to prayerfully minister to these people and be led by the Spirit in all our actions with them.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. -1Cor 1:18
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? …And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. -1Cor 6:9,11
Of all the great comments on this post, “C” hit the nail on the head.
The Bible characterizes Christ rejecters as “wicked” and without excuse because they have made a conscious choice to exchange the truth of God for a lie. There are no “honest” unbelievers as they are often portrayed.
Anyone can come toward the light if he or she chooses, but the Bible makes it crystal clear that people who don’t make that choice because their deeds are evil.
This issue isn’t nearly as complicated as some of the commenter’s make it.
Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle
Royce, while there are certainly people who consciously reject Christ, can you honestly say that all non-believers have done so? I would suggest that some people have rejected Christ because the only view of Christ to which they’ve been exposed has been an overly judgmental, and sometimes compassionless, one acted on by many churches. Furthermore, if someone has never been taught the gospel–has been raised in naturalistic teaching–then perhaps they’ve never recognized a choice exists, although they have a sense that there must be something more to life. That’s why we ought to be active Christ-centered, service-filled children of God that the Spirit may work through us to reach their hearts. If as a Christian I contend that all non-believers are wicked and/or dishonest, then why on earth would they want to hear more about Christ?
I’d add a couple more things to what Jason said, Royce. We must establish what, exactly, unbelievers are “rejecting” (if, indeed, they have conscienciously rejected it … the Bible also uses language of “being asleep” and “waking up” to refer to conversion, so I’m not sure the “wicked” argument gets us anywhere constructive…). Are they rejecting a set of propositions about Jesus? Are they truly rejecting the Living God and His Way? Are they rejecting the church?
Many times, it’s not cut-and-dry why people aren’t “believers,” and I don’t find it helpful to paint all unbelievers with a broadstroke of “wicked.” Many of us have worked out our faith over many years, beginning in a childhood of seeing the gospel modeled for us. I personally have a new “waking up” experience every couple of months when I read or hear something that sheds new light on some aspect of the gospel. Many of our co-workers, fellow students, or neighbors did not have the experiences we had/have.
From my experience working and dialoguing with not-yet-Christians, many have never heard the gospel — the freeing, saving gospel of Jesus — without all the crap that we Christians throw into it. Are these folks wicked for having never seen this lived out in an authentic way? I want to be a part of a movement that models the radical, counter-cultural way of Christ, working alongside God as he “puts the world to rights,” and inviting all people — Christians and non-Christians — into that life. I believe that is the freeing Gospel we should preach, not some set of rational propositions that one must ascribe to in order to be “in.”
(Truth is, I don’t ascribe to some of the traditional propositions of the church…)
They’re not the greatest of theologians, but DC Talk stated, “The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today… is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is simply what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”
For those that proclaim to follow the way of the cross to be any more believable perhaps we should first do a little more apologizing than proselytizing or finger wagging.
Royce:
You said: “The Bible characterizes Christ rejecters as “wicked” and without excuse because they have made a conscious choice to exchange the truth of God for a lie. There are no “honest” unbelievers as they are often portrayed.”
The sacred texts of other religions say much the same about you and I, since we have rejected the truths found therein. I imagine that fact doesn’t overly concern you. Why, then, should your argument concern someone who doesn’t believe the Bible is authoritative?
It isn’t complicated at all to say “I am right, all others are wrong, and God is on my side.” That is simple, and utterly ineffective. More grace and peace than that is needed.
No comments on how outlandishly arrogant LDB’s post is?
Wow.
Its so easy to see why people are atheists when reading some of these comments. Wicked. Foolish. blah blah blah.
Can anyone imagine Christ telling people they are stupid because they dont’ believe? Thomas needed proof… he needed to see jesus’s hands and touch his side… but Jesus didn’t call him stupid.
Sometimes I’m embarrased by the things people say in the name of the Lord.
Richard B
“…despite our claims to hold the “truth,” we show an astonishing lack of curiosity and critical thinking about our beliefs.”
Indeed…it is the unscriptural ‘belief’s of Christians which provide most of the grist to the atheist mill.
The ‘trinity’, ‘immaculate conception’, ‘original sin’, etc. are all products of the Graeco-Roman church fathers’ world-view. These doctrines have nothing to do with Hebrew Christianity or the teachings of the Hebrew apostles. They are NOT derived from the New Testament. This is a demonstrable fact.
Isn’t it about time we stopped providing so much ammunition for atheists?
oh wow…i need to get this book. he has a lot of good points and questions…even though i am a christian and i believe in the message of Christ…
Thanks for posting on this Mr. Cope. As a Harding student, I was actually recently part of a Wednesday night study that for three or four weeks would read sections of Letter to a Christian Nation and then discuss them. As a nonbeliever, I applaud their (and your) attempt to be knowledgeable about arguments from “the other side.”
The saddest part to me was hearing a group of very intelligent, compassionate students discuss slavery and genocide (after reading Harris’ discussion of the subjects) and conclude that maybe those things weren’t always so bad. “Maybe slavery wasn’t so bad back then, and it was really better for some people,” one person said. And most agreed that slaughtering the Canaanites man, woman, child, and animal was wholly justified because God was on their side. If you want a reason why so much of theology seems repugnant to intelligent, and yes, honest (contrary to what Royce said) people, look no further than these discussion of slavery and genocide, issues that many honest theologians agree are extremely thorny issues for a Christian to reconcile.
Harris has nothing new to say, and doesn’t have the credentials as an established scientist or philosopher to really deserve the attention he’s getting. Most of his popularity comes from his polemical style, some of which is justified, but little of which is productive. The fact that such diatribes against Christianity are popular in America should be a warning to churches that their attempts to have influence in social and political avenues will naturally breed strong reactions, which might impair their ability to affect individual salvation.
Some of Harris’ arguments in Letter were utterly poor (suc